Yeah whats' worse is the ones who claim that they HAD to go back to eating meat for "health" reasons. Which is ludicrous, ignorant and arrogant of course but what is the most weird about these born-again carnivores ( ;-) ) is that if they became Vegan for ethical reasons originally and out of love and respect for their fellow creatures on the planet, then what happened?

Have they stopped caring? or have the animals stopped suffering?

Actually if anything over the last ten years life has gotten worse for animals rather than better.

So its hard for me to contain myself when I meet one of those born-again carnivores (I love that title! ;-)

Because I feel like telling them: "so if you found out that raping little children is good for your health would you also change your views on pedophaelia?"

lol.


actually, maybe I will start telling them that :-)

later.

I don't have a Trader Joe's or ANY shop selling vegan cleaning products nearby, unfortunately. That means I have to order them online if I want them.

As for cow (or goat's) milk, if you do your research and see all the diseases that are caused by it from diabetes to osteoporosis to cancer you will see that common sense does prevail...the common sense being that all mothers make milk for their babies...in this case the baby is a four-stomached 100 pound calf who will grow to 500 pounds at 6 months. It is an extraordianry leap to think that this cow's milk would be good for humans (who grows from 9 pounds to 180 in 16 years!!!)

...not to mention good for ADULT humans??? there are absolutely no creatures in nature who still drink their mother's milk into adulthood...It is ridiculous, bad logic and arbitrary to state that cow's milk is good for humans, why not giraffe's milk or rats milk? or even chimp's milk (since they are the closest to us in evolution ) ??

How could we evolve as a species with the NEED for another creatures milk? Maybe you WANT to drink a cow's milk, but there is no evidence as to the NEED.

As for symbiosis: you should familiarize yourself with the definition of the word: "the relation between two different species of organisms that are interdependent; each gains benefits from the other "

each from the other!

I see very clearly how you benefit form enslaving the cow, and stealing the calf's milk. But what does the cattle get from this relationship?

"Cows dont' do well on their own?" How arrogant and anthropocentric of you.

Herds of Aurochs (the ancestor of the cow) roamed the earth millions of years before humans were even around. Wild American and Water buffalos and other herd animals do very well in nature without human meddling thank you very much!

Of course a single cow kept constantly impregnated and separated from her social structure (the herd) does not fare well on her own, even if a single bull is present.

This is why if you see dairy cows (happy cows as people refer to them) in the american country side in a pasture, you don't see a herd you see one or two individual cows, standing alone, dissensitized, antisocial and a little bit insane, whereas if you look in nature and see wild herd animals there is never small groups of one or two here and there, the herd is pretty much always a unit.

As for the nutrients in milk; if you check you will see that most of the "nutrients" are ADDED. And all of the "nutrition" that one gets from milk is available in BETTER sources in the vegetable kingdom (and without the cholesterol and animal fats)

As for Vegan cultures, their probably were much more than we know of. Specifically there was one tribe of Native Americans in the South West I think who were Vegan...and all early humans (you know from 2 million years to 10 000 years ago) were Vegan.

But even if this were not true, it does not change the fact that dairy production is wrong (no matter how small) and that milk is unhealthy. Just because we have done it does not make it right.

Most human cultures enslaved horses that does not make it right. The inquisition, the holocaust and countless wars are also in our history that does not justify these things. We've destroyed our environment, made entire species extinct and committed various atrocities in the name of culture and tradition.

Tradition also preaches genital mutilation, gender inequality and the superiority of certain races over others (or with the caste system) of certain groups over others. Just because it is tradition that does not make it acceptable.

Humanity has done many things in its past, I would prefer to learn from the past rather than just immitate it. I look to the future, and whatever we have done in the past our future (if we have any) is Vegan.

The biggest crime of milk production is not the torture, the theft, the enslavement, the rape of the parents and the murder of calves, although those are quite horrible within themselves, the biggest crime is the DESTRUCTION of the animals' natural society. The destruction of the herd.

But of course to paraphrase a wise person: "The senses tell the mind that they like the taste of milk and then the mind tries to justify it."

;-)

Simple: I can eat a perfectly lovely, healthy and sustaining diet without having to kill anything to do so. Since life is precious, why would I do otherwise.

Okay, I see I got misunderstood, all my apologies for that expected second step we all got to go through it (boring but hey, that's humans for you and I. Meanwhile, you melt too easily from sight so I HAD to do something worthy of an apology myself, keep reading you may see why).

'I didn't like your story': Wellwellwell... I tell you something my friend, I'll do us both a favour: I'm not gonna read any further than “anthropomorphic” from the corner of the eye, and because it's the corner I won't even comment on that: if you are worthy of your shouting you'll make the comment yourself. To be frank I thought it so, that's why I came back quicker, not point letting bad soup simmering. But I bet you get nasty quick, coz clearly you don't like the truth if it looks like a story, and I don't like liars under any shape or form so don't want to read any.
Didn't I say it was a true story? Check. No I didn't. All my apologies, I've always thought that truth had its own bellring. Obviously not for all, so that's interesting. Thank you. Still, doesn't mean there's no hope. Remember, I haven't read any of what you said second go coz of the start.
...
!
HEY, YOU! Thank fuck all for that one and no apologies after all! What I just said then reminded me (always check on oneself unless one's got liars in front of course :( - that me too had a second entry. And by the look of things you're bound (isn't colloquial a good thing, at least we know where we stand with it) to have read it. So I went to navigate between things there too, and lo! what do I find? Yes, I did say plain it was a true story. [:[Goddam people who make one doubt of the truth.[[
Well, there I remain perplex. Truth is truth, nothing wrong with saying it especially if it is beautiful but felt even more needed when it's not. Once it's said and shared then something happens. Who the fuck does he think he is, liking or not liking the truth? ... You don't change others' truth , that's immoral!
;;;

...

;;;
Am hearing covert thunder somewhere. else. ...
Ah yeah, there was a 'waoh' too somewhere. else too.

"If you aren't stupid enough to talk of what you don't know, you should have enough brains to not try spin by pretending it doesn't exist. "

Hey, if you'd like to pretend that that applies to me, just remember this: the story is true. So I'll have mates to laugh with any time as long as you're trying.
..
It's almost touching, your wow. Just about. Not quite..
;;;
Yeah, this. Mummy – nurse – whatever talking:
You really should follow my (her, then) advice of looking at things for what they are. Then you'll see it's really not the story you don't like. It's the context.
Me, my friend, about the context, I'm past likes and dislikes as such. They are tools. Like me and the rest. And you sure bet ain't gonna let MY toolkit be fiddled with by unmannered people without a darn good fight :) I'm still alive so that means I still have it <:-}
Anyway. Got better things to say.

Explanation for the arrogance (well, mine at least, nothing to do with the other one's - he'll have to make up his own. That's you, Antoine.) : arrogance for arrogance, see how you answer. That's by necessity, I most certainly did not start the fight; whereas you, like a lunatic cuckoo, jumped straight on, teeth first and no quarter on the views of a 5 year-old who was bringing you a big pearl.
¿¿¿?
¡

Admit that's a totally deranged behaviour, we'll be friends and we can hear more of the dreams of people when you tell the story of your cat. Who, according to your gospel, babe, should definitely not be in your arms but roaming at large “away from human( animals)” and definitely no friendship, MMMM? I'm happy to see that despite what you can come up with, you are not yet at top level in the moronic, and still do abide somewhere by the GOSPEL OF THE COW, as in 'BE HAPPY THAT'S WHAT MATTERS' (never mind what you can say).
Therefore is hope.
Sorry, can't help it. No teasing, no hope. But it only works with an apology in between. See, easy. Cool, man!
Then we'll both be able to be coherent: you with your behaviour with your cat, and me with my aspirations. Won't that be nice. No need to shout anymore, the cows 'll do that for us. Never heard them singing? :-) :-) :-) And for fuck's sake, WHEN are you gonna learn I only talk of what I know? (answer: when you look at it without all that bollocks in front of your eyes)

That reminds me of, hopefully one last thing I caught on the corner when scrolling back. Oh , sh..., there's another msg too I got to check, sorry, the other one first :)
Wazat? Egregores... entities...avatars! yeah, was: Avatars. With a capital (? Must 've been. No, no capitals. Good. Can't be wasting my time with capitals on big words ). And even, was: ''No avatar''. (And somewhere nearby, who are you. Same to you, mate! You got some manners, you got! Well, you gonna have to get rid of it if you want to know, and that's only to start with; by now you'll need to apply the new set (of manners) fully before I'll bother. If it comes it comes, but not by you. And, yeah, I know exactly where that comes from when addressed to me. And I know what to answer too, which may just save the day. But you've asked first, so you say first. Manners, man, manners, crenomdieu, as the froggies say. D'Artagnan and all that :)]]

I got that to say, though:
The more it goes, the more I think it's a darn good religion: The gospel of the cow. Hang on, I'll do that properly:

THE GOSPEL OF THE COW:
''BE HAPPY (and thankful, cheers), THAT'S ALL THAT MATTERS.''

And because there are always a few who see things upside down, for those ones it'll be:

''be happy (AND THANKFUL, you *** morons!), that's all that matters.''

Note that by this the greedy bastards get a tell-off (on the side but no less meaningful for that), whereas the nice ones get a nice little reminder that'd give you a tear in the eye if you knew what it means for some.
If you don't agree with that GOSPEL OF THE COW, b****y h**l mate, I'll just leave you to ....Nooohhhh, don't leave him do anything! Alright, I'll leave you to h**l, then. That's your own gospel, or where it leads to.
And in case you do adopt the new gospel, you'll probably end up trying to preach it for a while ( looks ingrained to me) til it cures you of it by its own effect, as all good things are wont to do. So let's have it said now: as for me, you'll do well to dispense me with the reminder, thank you – me don't need you to remember what I came here for in the first place, ain't gaga. yet despite you trying your darnestest. So when you get there just say thank you, that'll do and then we can proceed in an orderly manner, which ain't been the case so far.

Oh, yes, the who are you bit. Got that by the corner scrolling down to the posting thing. Answer for the others. Got my eye coz I got a story on that but that'll come later.
Ain't gonna say my name or anything by which you're likely to recognize me, coz to tell you frankly it's been hard enough to find out how to stop total strangers coming to me and telling me all sorts of things I couldn't do fuck all about. At that time. Thing is, in order to Be able to do somfink about it ya gotta first learn to stop 'dem walking all over yar darn seedbeds. It's hard to get angry at people when you like 'dem. So just that takes a while and o' course dat's only the start – well, not just that coz everything sorts of crams in by bits, it ain't exactly well organized when you 'go blind' (but free). And when you get there in the end, well, dere's various things that make it so that they don't do it anymore. And I'd rather keep it dat way, thank you. Now they happy smiling, dancing, playing, and generally getting on with their lives, so now I, can now go talk to them. Without shaking 'dem, and for a laugh. Or whatever's needed. That's when no one pisses me off wid dirty eyes just coz I don't look like 'dem. But then if they push I take over, and it usually works out for the benefit of most if not all good-wills. The ones I miss are welcome to come about and see me, and no point waiting, if I can do something I will. If I can't I'll say so and 'll keep it on da backburner. If I like you. If I don't you'll know it soon enough. Imagine if I started preaching, the f***g aggro. No way and dat's what I say.

0 friends? what's he talking about?

That and a soul-mate* is all I ask for for now.
*the soul-mate. not of your race, as in 'humans'. As for me, I diverge from that sometimes and it's losing its attraction... sometimes... yeah, well, never pretended to be a sinless avatar and there really is a lot of s*** down here some places in case you did not notice. Ain't got time to fiddle with your avatars, icons a.s.o.. Most of my friends are off-net, luv! (In various ways too.) (pfff, long one that one),
So instead of letting you call names again I can tell a story.
That's another true one, and true children do not need to read the following brackets. Kids, you just skip it it's bad language, sorry but gotta stop 'dem calling names. Go to the next paragraph, count 1-2-3-NOW! (((---For the other ones, true means true, no point moaning about it, okay? For that one I can't be bothered, done my homework long ago. As the story proves. :)
Okay.
Way back last millennium, after I had just fought my genitrix to get my son back from her, then seen thunder fighting off the first bout of collective hypnosis I remembered witnessing, and earned a lives-long soul-mate* (pfff, long one that one too, well you did ask albeit impolitely but, good soul, I assume others would be more polite) all three of us landed in one of the last Cathars' places, the Beautiful ones of their times.
There, some guy who was almost as nutty as the ones we'd just left, bewildered me by asking (while trying to Ask but rather pathetic about it as could be expected) just that question 'Who are you'. no I was not impolite (that bit came later – in years, when I got really fed up with the lot and discovered it was useful when well framed). I'll skip the details, just to say I ended up telling him I did not have a clue what he meant, since my name was not enough for him. Soon enough dismissed him from my mind for incompetence. Impoliteness, what. Then, some weeks later, same question again from entirely something else.
''WHAT?! Damn it! That won't do, they gonna start p***g me off wid' that too,'' said I to myself. ''Got to find an answer to that that's gonna shut 'dem up once and for all. Now. '' So I asked/looked/whatever one does in those cases. Good thing it didn't take too long too. And here we go, but that's really gonna piss you off no end if you ain't found humour by now. Answer:
I am the one in search of the Sshadow that gives Llight – and who Ffollowz the Ggospel of the Ccow, should I add by now. Good thing it's written now, I'll just have to refer people to it and won't need to add to it anymore. GOOD thing, that. If it gets erased I got others asking for it, I'll do fine thank you.
As for you, if you try it don't forget the capitals, dat gives ya time to get away in dignity. Mostly in mirth. Thing is, no one ever tried it live again except a few cops under duress but they are happy with my real name, and personally I don't wish 'dem no harm, actually. Like unto anyone else, really. That makes for simpler lives. Without preachers 'd be perfect. But hey... gotta change the gospel to make it better.
So there, find your bread in that, as they say. See you when you see it of course. the Shadow, I mean. Just make sure you're a bit more graceful wid' 5 y.o. by then, that's all. (well, you do what you want of course, but it'll find a way for sure ;-)
Means, I won't even read anything you can write related to that question even once if I can avoid it, and if not shall dismiss it as irrelevant. At least from you, I'll see for the others'. There'll probably be other bits left aside in the bargain, you now will know where it comes from so I won't apologise for not taking up the provocation :]

Although since you talk of avatars allow me one question: if cows are just herd animals, what the heck is that cat doing in your arms? Should be roaming at large, ''away from humans'' and no collar thank you. See, you too follow the gospel of the cow. Wish you'dn't deny it, that's all.
Same about being honest on the story. You just denying it's true. Well, too bad, mate, you lose and I'm not even bothered winning, as you'll realize if you start accepting the truth for what it is. What you don't like ain't the story, it's its context. Upon which we heartily agree, it's a fucking scandal to have to go through that just coz one doesn't want to eat one's darn f***g friends. Thing is, so far and as far as I am concerned, the 'through that' bit also includes you. But I always assume reasonable good will so I'll stick to it for a while yet. Stick to it at my measure, 3 goes is the legitimate, can't ask for miracles on a daily basis. Well, yea, actually but hey, got other things to do too. Especially if it doesn't get more polite pretty soon. People get bored with bad manners after the first two or three goes, ya know. 'does help.
For example – let me say it again, I'll have reached the count then for the hard-of-hearing - it would be most helpful if you would acknowledge straight out that you just jumped like a raving lunatic, teeth first and no quarter, on a beautiful bit of life, and this for the sake of massacring what a 5 y.o. had deduced from that impossibility she was living in. I thought meat meant life, no?
With a minimum of the compassion you undoubtedly claim for your own (well, yeah, I do want apologies before I read more of your prose, fair enough it seems to me), it's easy to see that because it is true, it appeals to people's dreams or whatever you call it, much million times better than any preaching :):):) So obviously too it don't work with preachers – their turf and no one else's, init. Ain't trying to get into yer kitchen, ye know! Quite like getting it all ready and not spoilt by preaching, of course. Tell me stories, that'll do much better. If you don't someone else will and good for them.

If you still don't wanna get it, hey, your choice, but no sweat: I'll eat meat the day I meet you and the cows will approve, coz you eat life and I don't wish you harm, so someone's got to pay for it, obviously. (Hi granny weatherwax! Hey, look, she being nice, she smiling wicked! See who she'll be looking at with that, hey?) That'd be another interesting meeting, Chinese-style that one. Am not looking forward to it, never managed to enjoy blood like she does but that's her job so don't you hang on to that, there are far better ways to get there <;-)

Hello to your cat, by the way. Was rather hoping you'd tell us a story about him or put a link to one but hey, pt on that one so far. Good thing my gospel's more tolerant than yours, hey? A laugh and let's pass.

---------------
That bit iss for granny's terry: Thanks, You brilliant, mate. giv's some more willya, pleez!

88888888888

Hi Myles.

''I can eat a perfectly lovely, healthy and sustaining diet without having to kill anything to do so. ''
Thank you for doing so, Since life is precious. :):):)

why would I (me) do otherwise. Not by choice, dear. ''Simple'' : coz life is not simple for everyone, and cows have compassion too. It's not as if we actually Wanted it, ya know. I mean, the cows and I. In case you didn't get that drift of the story. And pointing them out as that indefinite 'herd cattle' don't help either, if you don't mind me using you for saying so, just popped up. All those generalities, no place for the individual. tsss. That, is sad.

Am wondering why you didn't get that drift of the story.
Could be anything.
...
could be loads of things...
See, it ain't that simple even there, fancy the rest! <:-)

And thank you for not eating my life with your words too ;)

888888888888888888:)

Hem, by the way. doesn't anyone says hello in there?
...
Where I come from, it's considered polite.
Wonder how it's considered down here.
Well, til I get an explanation I'll continue saying it. Or, possibly, if I see a better reason to not say it than to say it.

Am vaguely hearing something like, we only say hello to pure vegans.
If that's the case, people, absolutely no problem, just say it yourselves three times and I sure won't bother (you) again. Only I point out that it is not coherent with your discourse of openness to all that are actively interested in not feeding that ghastly zombie-machine, yeuk. it don't make make me feel better about it right now to say yeuk but I'm pretty sure I'll appreciate it if I got to read that again, yep, that helps, good for me. Pfff, mates, thick soup you gimme for what I came up to start with. Was warned, mind, so you ain't so virulent after all. But think a bit: that's only from yous lot. Doesn't that tell you at least something about what I get from some? Schoolboys don't mean anymore what it used to, in case you didn't catch up. But, sorry mate, 'dey part of 'de family too, yeah? Yeas. Good.

If not good enough, just go and see them for yourself. When you come back – watch yer arse, dey ain't schoolboys and just you watch that's old language, in modern language even schoolboys don't guarantee so much lately.... at least you don't go straight out insulting people telling them they're lying. By contrast you get two more (good) points just for that, that's one for you and one against 'dem who do that – so if you still want to come back on that, we'll talk again. Pleasure, I'm sure :)



Got a warning, valid for everyone:
Seeing how Jesus (hey, prof, how's you, fine thanks, getting along, see ya, nice!) ended up equipped with, which he really did not need and me neither (since he done it for me like for anyone else, as far as I know – don't I love preaching preachers! and don't you get all obfuscated you'll only look ridiculous in the end trust me at least on that and truly for your own good too: his and mine and your gospel are the same – 't's only you who's claiming we're... aliens, shall we say? whatever...), so anyway just don't you try getting me to get into capital letters in big words: won't work. ain't programmed for it. and by now me's programmed meself for NOT getting into capitals wid' big words and that's one step further. Am rather proud of that one really. Not exactly truly proud, gotta be daft for that and then ya gotta be triple grateful to make up for it so I'll leave you with that one, but you'll have to work it out, it's getting late and I got to tell my mates to check this blog, they really like it. And stop being susceptible, please: you may end up shaking the tree afore it's ripe, as we say some places.
So, warning: the Gospel of the Cow, or Ggospel of the Ccow for the initiated, starts where it starts here and ends where it starts. here:
''BE HAPPY (and thankful, cheers), THAT'S ALL THAT MATTERS.''
And in case you still don't (***) get it, it is for five year-old souls. Which ain't necessarily located in actual five-year old bodies either, init.
Pfffff.
if I was your mum I'd darn well have taught life-eaters to apologize for little kids' souls, and let's leave it at that for you. My son does, and he ain't stupid enough either to understand some time coming that it ain't worth being proud to just be 'normal' by doing so. Then we'll start flying.

Besides, my mates are very very nice people. And some of them should actually start thinking about cutting down on meat, there, coz I can see that that bit of cholesterol there's got som'fink to do wid' that. Well, just try it for a while anyway, why not... So there, won't have to say it again, let's not be pushy, hey, we don't want them sick. Hem, H&H. watch da beer too, luvvs. [Oops, you just made me burp. Well, yeah, what you think? Ain't as if I couldn't taste it either but we'll see to that in private :-)]
Meanwhile, think vegan and not preachers, it'll do you good. They'r bad for digestion. <;-)

Love to all (except those who don' wannit, of course. Let's not be That mean <;-))

I've already scoped out my local EMS -- I know where to get good vegan boots and am committed to it for the next pair. I am not going to throw this pair out, though. I'm going to have them repaired until that is no longer possible. Throwing them out seems as disrespectful as buying them in the first place. Again, another highly debatable point, dubious. Just my sense of it for the moment.

I'm with you on the plastic thing, Antoine. The Dansko bottoms, btw, are just this great moulded plastic thing -- really kind to my various injuries, and they last forever. It's almost impossible to wear those bottoms out. I like the idea of shoes that last forever -- in general of things that are made well and are durable and that we can form a long-term (non-disposable) relationship with. Buying things and throwing them out all the time feels bad for the mind to me. When one has shoes that last a long time, one sort of is invested in them... I know in some mystical thought, one is never to wear another's shoes, or even to loan your own shoes to another, so invested are we to be believed in this foundational garment. I like this idea -- but still didn't hesitate to pull a pair of uggs out of the trash last winter.

Oh yeah, to any shoemakers reading: warm things. And dry things. please....

1. what Matt said.

2. Well Master, I don't get how providing you with information is flaming? as for the other person that I supposedly flamed, I think that someone coming unto a PETA tribe and talking about the value of eating animals is the flamer (especially considering that PETA's message on that is pretty clear)....then I am blamed for flaming that person because I did not just bend over and take the abuse ???

Isn't that a bit like the thief suing the homeowner cuz he was hurt while trying to rob the homeowners home?
;-)

This is the PETA tribe and when you say this: "I actually get ALL my eggs and Milk from personal friends who own hens " that illustrates why I posted the information that I did. No one OWNS hens...hens belong to themselves and to themselves alone...and they do not produce eggs to be scrambled...regardless of whether they CAN produce 1 egg a day (now)...and it is YOUR facts that are wrong by the way ...because even in the most intensive factory farmed conditions a hen can not produce more than an egg every 28 hours....they do not do it FOR THAT REASON...the hen doesn't wake up one morning and say :"come on girls let's make an omelette for the Master!"

and besides I clearly explained how hens today have been so selectively bred to produce more eggs than they would usually have in nature...although this selective breeding was done over hundreds of years, so hens today (left alone and treated well) will produce more eggs than what should be natural for them...but don't trust me ask farmer brown, he is a farmer who knows, and has seen hens at farm sanctuary who are not used for profit. www.askfarmerbrown.org/

and even organic farmers practice force molting,starvation, putting the animals in darkness, extreme cold to shock their systems into producing more eggs....ask your friend....and as for the practices...as long as they are profiting off the sale of eggs, how can you trust that their practices are respectful of the hen? whether it is a small company or a large one, they ALL have the same bottom line: profit. And then hens HAPPINESS does not factor into that equation at all.

organic ONLY applies to the food fed to the animal and the fact that no anti-bacterials and chemicals are used ON the animal. And some times to the confinement...but organic animals CAN be confined...and ALL organic animals end up as someone's dinner JUST like non-organic animals...they are ALL transported in very cramped, frightening and stressful conditions, and slaughtered in horrible conditions.

(there are no laws in either organic or non organic that apply to non mammals, which means that birds and fish DO NOT NEED TO BE STUNNED before slaughter, and fish are usually left to suffocate or are bashed on the side of a boat while still alive...their inner organs often coming out through their mouths, and then they are gutted ALIVE...at fish markets they are taken out of the tank, and turned into filet (cut open, gutted, skinned, and getting their head chopped off all while still alive)

and ALL the studies that have been done prove that birds and fish have the same pain receptors and nervous system and sensitivity than mammals)

In fact for the hen to be happy, there would be a rooster around and the egg would be fertilized, she would talk to the egg and teach him or her until he or she hatches, and she would watch him or her grow...as a mother hen SHOULD do...in fact that is why we use the term MOTHER HEN in every day language....oh and she would not be killed and see her entire flock be killed.

farmed fish are so cramped in the tank that they can barely move their fins...trawlers who fish the oceans are destroying all native plant and animal life...and killing our oceans...from space we are a BLUE planet...if our oceans die, we ALL die.

I am a city boy but I have met A LOT of (mostly ex) animal farmers...and they told me how they had to take the egg away from the hen (even unfertilized) push the hen out of the way and TAKE the egg (from UNDER her)...and the hen is NOT happy about it...and those were people with "organic" small chicken coops in their back yards...so...you need to reevaluate the truthfulness of what your "friend" is telling you.

and producing that many eggs severely depletes nutrients from the poor hens body, so most sanctuaries actually feed the eggs BACK to the hens...which helps to replenish some of the nutrients that they have lost. By eating the eggs you are actually taking nutrients out of the hens bones and muscles. but don't trust me, ask them www.farmsanctuary.org/ (send them an email, they are very nice and will repsond...if you want you can send them a link to this discussion and ask them to correct what I have said)

and the point of PETA and animal rights and Veganism is that regardless of whether you can eat the product produced by the animal or not, it is for us to realize that the animal does not SERVE the purpose of producing that product for you. (and again, you don't need to trust me, ask PETA)

As for the process taking time and the fact that you should give yourslef the time to transition into Veganism, of course that is true...and I always give people a break for the time that it takes...but from your post you were not saying that you are on your way to becoming Vegan...and if you were, I would totally respect that...it took me two years, and my wife three...but you are not on your way, you are defending your RIGHT to eat fish and eggs and milk...

and even when you DO become Vegan, this transition is something you will do for yourself, your soul and the survival of the human species, there will be no applause when you become Vegan...no congratulatory speeches, and you should not expect to be congratulated for what we SHOULD all be doing anyway. (although I probably would anyway, cuz I think it is cool when people go Vegan, but that should not be the reason why you do it)

(and to clarify I am not so arrogant as to claim that you want my approval, what I mean is that you seem to be implying that you should be somehow congratulated for what you are doing already...and that is why I bring that up)

If you want to be showered with praise for considering Veganism go to the PETA website and order the vegetarian starter kit...they'll praise you and call you a hero and all that...as long as you stick to it...I think like that Veganism is the first step, the basic...so I don't see anything particularly heroic or deserving of praise about my Veganism, it is just what everyone SHOULD be doing.

as for fish, if you feel shame for what you are doing to our oceans and for how horribly you are torturing kind and helpless fish, then maybe you should look into that...to blame me for the shame that YOU feel is dishonest...it isn't my fault if you feel shame...and it is definitely NOT my fault if you refuse to educate yourslef on the horrors of fishing because you feel shame. I simply provided you with information (and most of it from PETA ON a PETA tribe)

I hope you do take the time to read the information that I posted even if you do not want to read my opinions, then at least read up on it for yourself...what I did when I was transitioning to Vegansim (I also believed that eggs and wool could still be a symbiotic realtionship) at the urging of Farmer Brown I researched the information from the actual organic producers themsleves...I crunched the numbers and studied the conditions based on the information that THEY gave...and I realized that organic animal production did not work, and in fact could never produce the results that they promise...and that those were very far from HAPPY animals.

later I found out about Animal Rights and the concept that even if they were treated well, they do not exist FOR THAT PURPOSE...they are not ours to use in that way, and their flesh and/or secretions etc do not belong to us but to them...and then it all made sense to me.

Maybe that perspective will make sense to you...in which case I recommend Gary Francione's site (warning: he is NOT a fan of Peta, but he is a brilliant man anyway ;-) www.animal-law.org/

Matt-
thanks for your questions.
Quite simply, I take the time (no trouble for me) to get my eggs and Milk from locally owned natural farms and friends who have farms because I like and enjoy eating fresh farm eggs and whole, raw milk.
And based on my personal experience and dietary journey, it keeps me healthy.
I know there are many people who actually think they know what keeps *me* healthy and would not agree with my choice but ultimately it is my choice.
If you don't really get why people would want ( for me, need ) to eat it in the first place, then perhaps you've been a vegan for all of your life?
I could understand if that is the case.
I have read your opinion that dairy is kind of superfulous in any diet, it really fills no dietary void.
Although not my opinion, I thank for your opinion and know where you stand on the subject.

Truly I am,
Master Kataka