Original Post by Antoine

www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp

Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge sheds and treated like milk machines have replaced most small family farms. With genetic manipulation and intensive production technologies, it is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk a day— 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk production as high as possible, farmers artificially inseminate cows every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules cause dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they sometimes drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and overuse of antibiotics. Cows— like all mammals— make milk to feed their own babies— not humans.

www.milksucks.com/index2.asp

Dairy cows MUST be pregnant to produce milk. Contrarily to popular BELIEF, dairy cows produce enough milk FOR THEIR BABY. So even in organic "traditional" settings, the calf would need to be separated from her or his mother, so that the farmer can STEAL the milk.

Male calves would get a bolt to the head, and female calves would become dairy cows themselves...Farmer saw a "waste" in killing the male calves and so they created the dairy industry.

In traditional dairy farms mother cows would scream for DAYS for their baby after the baby was taken away from them.

There are no retirement homes for dairy cows. Even if you buy "organic" milk, ALL cows are sold to slaughter and end up as hamburger meat.
www.peta2.com/TAKECHARGE/...t_labels.asp


************Lady Bird responded*************

actually, while this is all true in relation to large farms, even 'organic' ones (which generally only means they eat organic food or have no antibiotics...but these laws are lax), and on top of this the milk is generally just domesticated cow milk and pasturized, there are much gentler ways to do things.
In general cow milk, and cow products are not very good for humans, they are recent in our diet, even in the recentness of dairy, and are too domesticated.
Homans have been drinking the milk of goats, sheep, horses, and even reindeer for far far longer. This was done raw, unprocessed, unhomogenized, small scale, and seasonally. Also it was often fermented, making it easier to digest and preserving it for the off months when the milk dried up.
People in small scale farms generally kill the babies at a certain age, smart ones do it after the baby is weaned (and the mother will wean a baby of course), and the baby does not have to be weaned by simply separateing, i infact know no one who does this, but then i have never partaken in or known people who factory farm.
Some friends of mine tape the goats nipples at night when the baby is older, then there is a little milk for them in the moning, then hte baby nurses a in the day. Gradualy they get weaned off.
I know another an who has an old nearly original wild form of cattle form scotland (tehre used to be wild cattle in those islands, where the modern cow is descended from), and while i still personally do not get along with cows and do not particularly like the milk or meat, they work for some people. These ones he milks aong side the cal, not literally at the same moment, but he just gets a little milk for himself and family, and lets the cow do her thing with the calf. Eventually she weans the baby and slowly dries up.
The mother will actually produce enough milk for whoever is nursing, there is only so much she can do and factory farms are obviously going far beyond that limit. Most dairy animals have twins, but sometimes one or 3, so they have a range. If there is one baby and you are milking as well, they produce enough milk as if for 2.
One can keep milking a little bit for quite a few years actually and not get them pregenant all the time, though it won't be enough to sell or anything.
Most people i know get a litre/quart or 2 per day from hand milking a goat, though i was reading about a commercial farm in which they use suction milking machines, and get 2 gallons a day per goat!
Humans adjust their milk production too, people can adopt and produce more milk for another baby, we can even start making milk after a few days of nursing WITHOUT being preganant, many mammals can do this, canines and felines for example, though nursing a goat for several days would be impractical :)
Of course thee are people who are allergic to goats too, very few, but there are allergies to everything. And there are also many people, most people infact, who have varying degrees of lactose intollerance since we haven't been drinking milk for very long, and again much of the dairy our ancestors ate was fermented. Lactose, being a sugar is eaten by the fermentation cultures. Casein allergy, to the protein, is something else, and is somewhat rare, these people should not have animal dairy.


**********************Antoine Responded***********************

Well I get my facts from dairy farmers. And they tell me that a cow will produce milk for 6 to 9 months after the birth of her calf...that is it.. And she will produce only a very little more than what her calf will drink... the calf needs to drink A LOT...so if you had one cow and allowed her (sic) to keep her calf, you would get at the very most a few litres of milk per day from her.

and the same is true of all animals, they produce enough milk for their babies, if they are stimulated they may produce more (BUT IT IS UNHEALTHY FOR THE MOTHER TO DO THIS and depletes her body of minerals, destroying her muscles and bones)

In fact humans are among the only species of mammals, than can continue producing milk for years after a pregnancy (if the breast is pumped continuously) so by that logic we should drink human milk in our coffee...and why not?

But the argument of animal rights, is not IF it is possible to enslave the animal in a kinder or gentler way. the issue is that the animal is NOT OURS to use in the way that we see fit.

I am sure that if you were pregnant and a guy came into your house in the morning after you and nursed your baby and grabbed your breast and "milked" you for his family...you wouldn't say, that's okay I don't NEED that milk, its extra.

;-)

the cow's milk belongs to HER for her baby. And the same is true of the goat, the horse or any other animal.

now as for the allergies, OF COURSE people are allergic to milk.
Every mammal is SUPPOSED to drink the milk of his OWN mother (or a surrogate of the same species) until he or she is weaned (which for humans is around 3 years old) NO mammal drinks the milk of his mother into adulthood...and it is even MORE ludicrous to drink the milk of ANOTHER SPECIES.

In fact if you met a 35 year old man, and he told you that he still drank the milk of his human mother you would consider him a TOTAL weirdo! but yet it is NORMAL to drink the milk from the tit of a cow!!!!???

Human milk is for human babies. Goat's milk is for goat babies. Cow's milk is for cow babies. Sheep's milk is for sheep babies. Horse's milk is for horse babies.

It is unnatural for an adult human to still drink his mother's milk. It is unnatural AND CRUEL and PREJUDICED for a human to drink the milk of another species.

oh and even the goats, horses and sheep ALL end up at the slaughterhouse. So for all the lacto-vegetarians out there: if you consume dairy products you are CAUSING animal's deaths.

********************LadyBird responded***********************

Well, i get my facts from personal experience on small scale goat farms. One of my friends has 2 goats, one being milked, one is a whether, another friend has 6, and other have a VERY large herd for a small farm of around 30, but they have to be buchered so that there is anough food and space for all of the remaining ones.
Perhaps human are among the only species of mammals who produce milk for years, but goats are also among these.
Who needs much more than a few litres a day anyway! This is another reason i do not work with cows, there is too much to deal with in so many ways: feed, space, milk produced, meat.
So why is it unhealthy for them to produce enough milk for say, 2 babies, if they only have one actual baby and the other use of milk is a human? They would produce that much milk anyway for twins! Further more, the time when the baby needs the most milk one should not milk the mother anyway, you do it gradually as they get older.
I do not concider this enslavement, if so i would have nothing to do with it.
One must concider the large percentage of the human population who, although they are opressed, live close to hte land, farms, and many of whom have animals who they milk and eat them. Are you going to tell all these indigenous people that their way of life is wrong or unnatural because you imagine it must be so or because of things dairy farmers have told you?
Do not attack us, we are not causeing harm, it is simply creating more factions and divisions when we should all be opposing the big industries which are in fact evil.

"I am sure that if you were pregnant and a guy came into your house in the morning after you and nursed your baby and grabbed your breast and "milked" you for his family...you wouldn't say, that's okay I don't NEED that milk, its extra.

;-) "

What a silly anology, why must people stoop to this level of attitude in civil converations?
It is not as if we are a stranger to the animal and just bust in the next morning and brutally strip the milk from the mother, these goats and us are actually friends, some are bottle fed when their mothers abandon them or are unable to nurse them for some reason, they get carried around, petted, hang out in the house, there was one goat for a while who slept with the children in the house! She is too big now and eats all the vegetables in the house.
If we wait too long to milk they will make it very clear that we should get out there and milk them, the only time i've experienced a problem is when i take too long and they get annoyed with standing there. They don't nurse the babies for long spells of time, they kick them away after a few minutes or less. I'm even prefering the idea of doing many small milkings a day rather than 2 large ones, they do not let all their milk out at once when they are only nursing a baby.
Do not assume that i would concider an adult drinking human milk a weirdo, that would be your opinion not mine.
I think it would be a very good idea and have certainly thought of it before.
And yes, i am sure that all the animals from COMMERICAL dairy farms do end up in the slaughterhouse, as i have already said, i do not nor ever have supported these places. The way people deal with older dairy animals varies, some people kill them and eat them, some let them live to be old and keep them as pets, some may eat them if they die of natural causes, and some bury them. Not all people who have airy animals are heartless killers, we develope a very close bond with the animal (as we are also animals basically living in community together, this makes perfect sense)
And for those vegetarians and vegans who think they can just replace meat with soy, soy farms are one of the worst, hugest monocropped GMO environment detroying things that humans do. People who farm soy large scale kill many many small animals, mainly prairie dogs. Any time you buy some plant product in fact from a large company, there are many animal deaths involved. Unless you are gowing or raising something yourself or getting it from a friend it is hard to guarantee that nothing unethical is being done. That is what it really important to be spending our energy on ratehr than experiementing with all these diets and reseraching companies and finding ethical ones..just assume they are mostly corrupt and the chances of finding the good ones are slim and do it yourself or buy local!

i don't feel like i need to read up on anything more on websites when i can experience in person, this is much better, people can say just about anything in print or on the internet and someone will believe it, you can find absolutely contradicting scientific studies with 'proof' and 'studies' backing them up.you really cannot know until you have been there.

************************Antoine responded***************************

It is unfortunate Lady bird that you don't feel you need to read anything. That you already have all the knowledge and don't feel anyone else can teach you anything. Ignorance is never something to be proud of.

I HIGHLY recommend that you read up on animal rights.

the issue is not whether or not YOU feel the goat is HAPPY or not...since you don't SPEAK goat all the personal experience in the world will not convince me that you have the goat's CONSENT to take HER milk.

Animal RIGHTS Ladybird means that the animal has rights to HER own body. It is not YOUR milk to take. Until the goat milks HERSELF and pours the milk in a pail and walks it over to your house, you will NOT have a leg to stand on.

;-)

and the fact that you speak of your friend butchering the goats and that it was enough "food" shows that you still see that the animal is only FOOD to you. and therefore not deserving of the most basic of rights.

PETA's stance is that animals are not OURS to eat, wear, or use for any other purpose.

It is unfortunate that you feel you already know anything, because I think the goats would benefit from YOU learning a little bit about animal rights.

And my analogy is only "silly" if you consider that the goat's life and value. It is only "silly" because you see yourself (or your friend) as the OWNER to the goat, and that the goat is not an individual deserving of value and respect.

Actually if you re-read my post carefully I never said that the man who came into your house to milk you was a stranger, he could be simply your OWNER. And would that make it better? Is it no longer a violation if the man OWNS you?

and then the issue of your friend OWNING his goats, and in fact having the right to decide what is done with THEIR milk...HE decides what is done with THEIR secretions from THEIR body...and then later he will decide if they live or die.

there's a word for that Ladybird: slavery.

and that is also only silly to you because you are a speciesist.

<pinches self> this is the PETA tribe right?

PETA is an animal RIGHTS organization you do know that right?

Ingrid Newkirk said: "There is no hidden agenda. If anybody wonders about -- what’s this with all these reforms -- you can hear us clearly. Our goal is total animal liberation. And a day when everyone believes that animals are not ours to eat, not ours to wear, not ours to experiment and not ours for entertainment or any other exploitive purpose."
2002 Animal RIGHTS conference.


I think that quote is pretty clear Ladybird... the goat is not YOURS and you have no RIGHT to take her milk, no matter how you justify it.

I hope you will realize that you do not in fact know everything and be open to learn about animal rights.

As for Badger and the other trolls, to support Peta and to not believe in animal rights is akin to being a Christian who does not believe in the resurrection, or a carpenter who is allergic to wood.

PETA = Animal RIGHTS.

****************************Lady Bird responded****************************


i feel i do not need to read more as there is limited amount to be learned in reading. No one can deny that real life is the best experience, anything can be written. Although i have heard the factory farm story many times and nothing can surprise me and i am quite willing to belive any atrocity that i have heard happens there, even without having actually been. I know people who have worked in them and their stories are enough, not to mention the numerous books and movies on the subject. Again, it is not ME you need to convince of this, it is old news, i grew up with this knowledge. Infact, i grew up on a organic homested, coming from a long line of 'organic homsteders' (for lack of a better term) who never stopped being close the the land.
Yes i do know what PETA is, have heard about it most of my life. Animals rights is far from a new concept to me, as is 'animals being people', something i have been aware of and working to spread for as long as i can remember, as well as the surprisingly controversial concept that plants are people too. Eventually you're going to kill something. If you spend as much time in close interaction with plants you realize how intensely alive and aware they are despite the lack of fur, eyes, faces, or various other similarities to us, animals are much more obviously alive, aware, and concsious being to the casual observer as they look up from their book or computer screen, or take the occassional visit to a farm or park to reconnect with 'nature' and 'animals'. (not that everyone or you in particular are like this, but i have certainly known enough and these are to who i refer)
I do not say that an 'animal' belongs to me any more than i say a friend belongs to me, it is the limitations of the language. I say 'my goat' and think i am trying to own, dominate and control...yet no one blinks at saying 'my friend' or 'my mother', and certainly not 'my plants'. I could make the sentance more clear for you so that these ranting detours are not necessary such as 'the goat who lives with me' 'the person who i am friends with' 'the mother who birthed me', or 'the plants that live in the house/land i live in' just know that that is in fact what i mean if i use 'posessive' phrases by accident.
It seems to be a pretty mutual agreement like that, ever attempted to cage a goat? It is simply not possible without a roof, they climb trees, climb buildings, jump several metre high fences....the point being, they can and do get out when they want. I know many people who will have nothing to do with them, probably because didn't have a harmonious relationship and the goats escaped or ate their gardens and so on.
The main reason people have fences for goats these days is because of complaints from neighbours, and to atleast somewhat deter bears, who will actually mawl and torture a goat before killing it, unlike a human who can kill it quickly (and please do not give me a speack about those who do torture them, we already all know about these people). There are certainly still people who simply walk with the goats all day as they graze. Most people i know who fence their goats have fences which i can get over in seconds, let alone a goat.
The idea of a goat milking herself is also rather absurd, concidering the opposable thumb thing. But a goat asking to be milked is enough for me! Aside form your endless reading, which you apperantly feel good for you, i would encourage you to actually see what happens in a traditional homested.
Oh and you may with to re-read my post carefully where a said "a VERY large herd for a small farm of around 30, but they have to be buchered so that there is enough food and space for all of the remaining ones" you seem to have confused the word 'food' with the word 'meat', 'enough food ...for the remaining ones' clearly refers to goat food.
And yes, i do eat meat, killed with as much care and little pain as possible, is certianly do not eat hamburgers and fries, never liked either anyway, even though i only used to have ones my mother made from our potatoes and meat from a friend. I tend to prefer wild animals, fish, and of course goats. These have so much dense nutrition so much less is needed.
Please do not tell me about rice and beans, soy (which isn't complete protein anyway, as it is just a bean) suppliments and protein shakes. My parents, in their period of experimentation tried being veggie, and much more briefly vegan. They were veggie until i was 4, resulting excessive soy, rice and beans, all of which i am mildly allergic to now, soy more seriously. Most people are alergic to soy, it's even more recent in the human diet than milk (which is about 8000 years in certain areas according to scientists) Oddly, people claim no evolution has occured during this time and we are all allergic to milk.
However the undefeatable holy grains, mainly wheat, have only been eaten in large amounts in the past 10,000 years...and suddenly we were meant to eat them and anyone who criticizes is somewhat of a heretic. In fact most people are allergic or intollerant to some kind of grain staple if not all.
Hemp has been the only kind of plant protein to effectively sustain me for periods of time in an experiment i did, i still notice brain function go down, headaches and lethargy comeing in. Not wanting to repeat the previous winter of wasteing away and actually loosing a lot of muscle tissue built up from a young age, i ceaced the project.
Obviously evolution happens, some adapt, some don't, perhaps my body is less evolved because i can eat few seeds and i become immensely sick and have nearly died from lack of meat. Only because i was broke, but i got lots of free good vegetarian food through my job at the co-op and volunteering with FNB, this was proof enough that it doesn't work for my body, if it works for you, very nice, just don't be so high and mighty about it, we're all different.
Speaking of which, you are quite exciteable, especially in the case of accusing micky of wasteing time prooving a point online when you are the one most exuberantly typing away insults which do not proove a point. I know i have a few myself, but i'm trying to be nice, this pointless bickering does not help anyone learn anything and it's too common on these forums. Perhaps some B vitamins would benefit you, good brain food, hard to get from plants. I don't touch it myself, it's made artificially, i prefer to stick to things i can actually grow, find, hunt or make from the previous 3. Much less contribution to corporation and poisoning by pharmecuetical companies, actually no contribution.
I will by the way, soon bail on this fascinating conversation and return to my home (or should i say 'the house in which i live') which has no electric or internet so that i can do something actually productive in my little part of helping the world with the move to sustainability. Thogh i do like check back in with tribe when i have some spare time in town and a computer in the same place.

p.s. i do speak basic goat , though i need to attend some more classes, it is down the mountain and across to river, a long way without a car, the goats tell me they understand human just fine, but i should really work on that accent ;)


***************************Antoine responded*************************

I hope you're joking about speaking goat.
While Peta does focus on cruelty and the cruelty of factory farms.

The point of animal rights is that regardless of cruelty, animals are not OURS to use as we please.

The goat's milk belongs to the goat. and we have no right to take it.

It saddens me to no end to see someone as obviously intelligent as you (and who loves to write considering your long posts) who is so arrogant as to not want to read anymore….others have differing views...and to think that you can uncover all these views by first hand account is ignorant.

because all your first hand accounts haven't taught you to respect the goats as individuals deserving of rights, so obviously your first-hand accounts are not working.

I suggest reading Tom Regan
Joanne Stepaniek
and even Peter Singer.

to understand that animal rights is not about avoiding cruelty, it is about avoiding slavery (which then takes care of cruelty too)

I also suggest reading Gandhi to learn a bit about thinking outside of yourself, and about compassion
NOTE: Gandhi did drink goat’s milk but he felt bad about it, and expressed remorse for it, but he was a man of his time (and a lawyer, not a nutritionist ;-) ) and he had been convinced that he NEEDED dairy to be healthy. Which is of course ludicrous as we know now. So if he were alive today he would DEFINITELY be vegan. This new wave of people who claim to be animal activist and who justify “humane” animal husbandry is sickening.